30 August 2023

Metacognition is the process of thinking about one’s own thinking and learning. In this episode, clinical psychologist Andrew Fuller explains how metacognition applies to wellbeing and learning and the role it can play in improving student outcomes. Andrew has worked with more than 4,000 schools and identified the concept of The Resilient Mindset. Plus, did you know the department has a Self-Regulation Service (SRS) which helps schools and preschools meet student needs with a focus on regulation? Occupational therapist Kathryn Mahadeva discusses why co-regulation and building good relationships with students is so important.

Show Notes

• Self-regulation support service
• Andrew Fuller

Transcript

Intro: Teach is produced on the traditional land of the Kaurna people. The South Australian Department for Education would like to acknowledge the traditional custodians of the land and pay our respects to all Elders, past, present and emerging.

Dale Atkinson: Hello and welcome to Teach, a podcast about teaching and learning in South Australia. My name is Dale Atkinson from South Australia's Department for Education and today we are joined by a man who is a clinical psychologist, a family therapist, an author, a speaker. There's a very long list of things in front of me here, Andrew.

Andrew Fuller, thank you very much for your time.

Andrew Fuller: Feel free to keep going.

Dale Atkinson: Well, it does say here you've worked with more than 4000 schools and more than 500,000 young people, which is incredibly impressive.

Andrew Fuller: I get around.

Dale Atkinson: Yeah. And your area of expertise really is around helping young people to self-regulate.

The idea of metacognition and their ability to stop and think. What is the most common mistake that teachers and parents make when they're confronted with a child who's struggling to self-regulate?

Andrew Fuller: Well, I guess the major issue is to believe that they can self-regulate, really. In fact, I don't particularly believe in self-regulation, I believe in co-regulation.

So that people learn to self-regulate eventually, hopefully, not everybody, through being co regulated. So we actually calm ourselves or enthuse ourselves in our relationships. Basically, we know that dopamine is one of the things that of course drives an up regulation and that's really driven partly by challenges, problem solving, quizzes, puzzles, estimation games in classrooms, all that kind of stuff, but also about the strength of the connections.

So, our social interactions are really important. Also, when we are upset, cranky, distressed, and so on. Some of us can sort out our stuff, and that's kind of cool if you can do it, but many of us can't, and so it's only when we're with somebody that we trust, respect, or have some kind of sense of connection with, that we can start to calm ourselves down.

So again, we co regulate.

Dale Atkinson: So the idea really is about building relationships between educator and child and helping to establish that before you reach a kind of crisis point where there is a young person who's topping out and feeling really kind of agitated and not in a good space.

Andrew Fuller: Well, really at the centre of any great school, any great life, any great experience, are relationships and so if you don't have the relationships there, people can't learn.

So we only learn really when we're within the company of people who we trust and feel safe with. And so without that, no learning exists in a school. So the core business of any school is if you can get the relationships right, then the learning follows, and the behaviour also follows that.

Dale Atkinson: Can we talk a little bit about metacognition? What exactly is metacognition?

Andrew Fuller: Well, a long time ago inscribed on the temple of Apollo in Delphi in Greece was the words 'know thyself'. And how wise that was to know thyself is a critical feature of an aware life. And so knowing yourself, of course, is critical for your learning, knowing how you learn best what your learning strengths are, what distracts you and so on, so we can talk about it in terms of learning.

But it's also true of wellbeing. So that essentially all of us, I think, have our ups and downs in terms of our practices of wellbeing and self care, I don't know about you, dale, but you know, I look after myself most of the time, but there's a few days, the party went a bit long or whatever happened, right?

So you're going to go, whoa, okay, I now need to pull back. And so basically, we need then to think about how do we help that conscious part of ourselves to be aware of that. Now, it's an interesting kind of phase to understand because it's not just a cognitive awareness of yourself. I mean, that's important, but we also need to be aware of under what conditions we function best.

So it's not just about kind of having the awareness it's going, okay, what are the features that I need to replicate in order to function best? Am I better after six hours sleep, or ten hours sleep or what works best for you? Am I better if I catch up with people regularly every day or am I better if I have sometimes where I don't catch up with many people at all?

So it's finding out that wonderful, curious mix that is individual to you about the conditions under which you thrive best.

Dale Atkinson: And how is that something that an educator can help to develop and build that self-awareness in a young person?

Andrew Fuller: Probably the most critical word to think about is what. And so partly when we're looking at kids or anyone who's not functioning very well, one of the first thoughts is not why is that occurring, because we can all theorize about why you're like this, but what's happened to you really? What's, what's going on? Now, maybe I may know that, or I may not know the answer to it, but speculating on what's, what's happened to that person that they are distrustful or feeling weary or feeling annoyed or angry or irritated by what's going on. And then partly the other question is the same word as saying, so what's going on for you? You know, you're not normally like this. How can I help? And so understanding that, is it critically important? Because we live in a world of why. Why aren't you ready on time? Why aren't you, you know, kids are thrown, and people are thrown, that why question all the time.

But what, is a much kinder response, I think.

Dale Atkinson: Why is it so important that we talk to young children about the way that their mind works and how this can help them?

Andrew Fuller: One of the most essential things that any of us can do in our lives, and we really don't have this as a major process in schools, which is a great, great shame.

If we can help people to understand how their brains work, we can improve their lives dramatically. We can improve basically their learning outcomes easily, but we can also improve their emotional lives, the richness of their relationships. So knowing, metacognition is knowing yourself and part of knowing yourself is knowing your brain.

In the last year particularly the amount of research on neurobiology of learning and neurobiology of basically wellbeing has been through the roof. It's really recent research and so what we need then to start to do is to think about how we could help people to get their hands on that research, use it in their classrooms, but also use it with young people to go, okay, so this is what's going on when, when I feel like I want to procrastinate, for example, what's going on in my brain?

Why might that be occurring? And what can I do that's different that's going to shift that state?

Dale Atkinson: You've worked with more than 4000 schools. Among those schools, are there any that you, that come to mind where you think, wow, they have done, an incredible job or are doing an incredible job. And what were the things that really captured you and really twigged your brain around that?

Andrew Fuller: The 4000 schools that I've worked with, and I've had been very honoured to work with all sorts of different schools, I can tell you that the things that really differentiate great schools are not programs or processes or even really things that they've imported or the knowledge and the wisdom of the staff in many cases.

It's the culture. The culture is around relationships. So having distilled this with 193,000 young people, what I boiled those three features down into were three words that basically when people connect with one another, when they protect one another and when they respect one another, people thrive. So the CPR of wellbeing, connect, protect, and respect.

And I think if you think about your own life, it's with the people that you connect with, the people you feel safe with, and the people ultimately you feel respected by, are the people that you're most comfortable sharing yourself, being aware, being creative, and being exploratory in your life.

Dale Atkinson: And I guess those moments that you reach a point of sort of psychological safety, that's where you're, you're confident to be a learner, confident to open yourself up to other experiences and to be open to gaining new learning. That's where it all kind of fits in.

Can we talk a little bit about the resilient mindset, which you've touched on with the CPR stuff? What does that look like as an individual?

Andrew Fuller: We've heard a lot over the years about fixed and growth mindsets, and the research has moved beyond that to a three-factor model. And if you think about it, these are driven by the challenges that we meet and our capacity to meet those. So we've all had times where the things that we have to do exceed our capacity.

I've got so much on, I don't want to begin, I don't want to, we get frazzled, we become anxious. So we enter an anxious mindset. There are also days where your incredible capacities are not fully appreciated by other people. Dale, I know that's very hard to imagine, but it possibly happens from time to time.

People don't enjoy that joke or that mediosyncratic sense of style that you have, and you get a bit dismissive. You become a bit avoidant. You say to yourself, well, what's the point? The point, nobody listens what I have to say. Nobody cares what I think. Right? And so we become into that avoidant mindset, but it's the balance between the challenges and the capacities that give you this sweet spot.

And that sweet spot is a bandwidth that we call a resilient mindset. And it's only when you are in that bandwidth that you can learn things. Other times you're either too anxious or too avoidant to learn a damn thing. And so it relates exactly to learning, but it also relates to your immunological functioning, because we know when you're in that bandwidth, your immunity actually is heightened and your longevity also increases, so basically you live longer and you're healthier physically.

So part of the art of running a school, running a family, running a community, running a classroom, is trying to have the bulk of people in that bandwidth most of the time. And being observant of the people who are either in the anxious or the avoidant mindset and thinking about what do they need from me in a relational sense to feel safe enough to get back into that bandwidth.

So it's not basically going, 'Oh, right now, Dale, you're in the avoidant mindset and you need to fix that.' Because you can't, you actually, you're going to fix it partly by having a kind adult who helps you to kind of, he looks like he's been feeling like he's been a bit neglected or overlooked. I'll ask him a question, include him and that kind of stuff.

Dale Atkinson: I think one of the great challenges for, uh, principals and leaders within schools and preschools is finding time within a very crowded space for all of the things that they need to do from, you know, curriculum design to the leadership piece to these relationship type skills that you're talking about here.

What should they be prioritising in terms of how they're working with their educators in this space?

Andrew Fuller: For any educator to have a happy career, they need to have a good time with the people they're going to spend most time with. And those people are their students. So if you get the relationships right with your students, then you're going to be a happier person.

If you're a happier person, that's that becomes a bit contagious, right? So it's very clear to me where your number one priority is. Actually, when you're at work, if I get those relationships right work becomes a joy because of course, you know, people are kind of relating to you, they're vibing off you and things are going well.

Now, that's not going to happen all the time. We know kids are kids and life is life. But by the time you get into my classroom and you're welcome, that's great to see you, how's things, all that kind of stuff. And basically, I believe in you. I know you're a smart kid. We're going to get even smarter this year. We're going to do all that kind of stuff. That makes an incredible difference, not only to you as a learner, as a student, but to me as an educator, it just makes my job a joy.

Dale Atkinson: Maybe this is something that's a bit self-evident, but we don't really stop and think about these things sometimes. Can you talk us through the characteristics of a good relationship and what some of the warning signs of an unhealthy relationship might be so that people can really think and reflect on that?

And what you can't see, listeners, is he's just checked his watch. Yeah, can you talk us through some of those things?

Andrew Fuller: There are five major features to a quality relationship, and the first one is trust. It's hard to imagine a good relationship without a degree of trust. But trust alone, while kids are desperate for it, people are desperate for it, we all rely on it, is never going to be sufficient because we all get things wrong.

We'll say things sometimes we don't mean or upset people we don't mean to upset. And so we have to have forgiveness. Now, forgiveness is often a misunderstood concept because, of course, sometimes people hear forgiveness and go, it's sort of an anything goes kind of world, but actually forgiveness is holding people to a higher level.

It's actually saying, you know, you're more than this situation, it's actually, let's go and help you fix it, because that's what we do here, if we stuff something up, we fix it. But, you know, I know that that's not who you are as a person. Then the third part is integrity. Being who you say you are and doing what you say you'll do, which is a big-ticket item in all aspects of life.

The fourth one is hope. In a world that often wants to rid people of hope and spread anxiety and despair, being somebody who sides as the antidote to that. Being hopeful for his or her students, being hopeful for the world in terms of its capacity to overcome difficult times, is a remarkable statement.

Some might say it's a bit rose coloured glasses, but it's actually important to really tune ourselves to what's hopeful in the world and the great breakthroughs that are occurring, and there are those. And the last feature of the five is kindness. Now, I think that everybody knows when they're kind. And I think also everyone knows when they're not kind.

Put those five features into any relationship, a romantic relationship, into a work relationship, into a relationship between you and your students. Trust, forgiveness, integrity, hope, and kindness, and you're there.

Dale Atkinson: It's a challenge for the listeners, I think. Trust, forgiveness, integrity, hope, and kindness.

That's what we should be going after in all of our relationships.

Andrew Fuller: Try it out in your romantic partners, my friends.

Dale Atkinson: Andrew Fuller, thank you very much for your time.

Andrew Fuller: Thank you.

Dale Atkinson: And we're also joined today by Kathryn Mahadeva, who's an occupational therapist with South Australia's Education Department's Self-Regulation Service. Catherine, thank you very much for joining us.

Kathryn Mahadeva: Thank you. Thanks Dale.

Dale Atkinson: While we were listening to Andrew talk there, you were nodding on a lot. What was resonating with you? specifically?

Kathryn Mahadeva: Well, our service is very much to support educators in schools to promote the regulation of students. We believe that that's essential for students to feel safe. The metacognition, being self-aware and understanding their emotions, their inner feelings, and being able to tweak their arousal levels, their attention, their emotions, and consequently their behaviour for the situation at hand. We very much believe in that occurring through relationship, so co regulation, and, yeah, our service is there to support schools with that whole process. We've got OTs and psychologists and also educators involved in our team.

Dale Atkinson: So what does the support look like? Is this a hand holding exercise with the staff out in the schools? Is it about training them up? Is it everything in between?

Kathryn Mahadeva: Well, essentially, when a school is interested in our service and puts through a request, we meet with the leaderships. So we very much want to be intentional, join them on a journey.

So their developmental journey of where they're going in terms of supporting the regulation of students, fitting in with their site improvement plans or their PQIPs and very much the culture of where they're heading and what they want to develop in that way. So we do planning and then we provide professional development opportunities.

So that's workshops, that can be either stand alone, sort of shorter, or it can be more of an in-depth process. And so the types of topics that we cover include relationships, so co regulation, the role of that in supporting emotional literacy development in students, the sensory processing as being an important part of understanding arousal levels, and also we look at thinking strategies and also educator self-care because we know that it's important for adults in the young people's life to be regulated themselves and having that inner self awareness and being able to therefore provide the safe environments and the co regulation for the students. We also do very much some follow up supports because we believe that the workshops alone are not going to make a sustained difference necessarily.

And so we're looking at translation into practice. So reflective practice through coaching and just unpacking what does that mean in everyday life in the classroom.

Dale Atkinson: So as a principal or leader out on a site, what are the kind of things that they might be observing that should be a little trigger to them to think, oh, actually, I might give Kathryn and the team a call?

Kathryn Mahadeva: Well, it really is a matter of what they're seeing in terms of the students. We're interested in data.

We encourage schools to collect data too, but they may be more informally noticing trends. But because we know that the academic outcomes, the learning is going to be based on students feeling safe and being emotionally regulated. It can be anything from student wellbeing that triggers this, or it might be even the engagement, attendance, all of this is, is related to how regulated students are. So there can be many, many ways in which we see that this situation needs support and addressing and building within a school.

Dale Atkinson: So I guess sometimes asking for help can be an act of vulnerability. There can be some anxiety around that process.

What would your message be to, to principals who might be like, oh, I'd love some help, but also I'm a bit anxious about how that might be perceived centrally or by my bosses or plenty of those sorts of things.

Kathryn Mahadeva: Well, I hope that we exude the fact that we're enthusiastic and warm. Essentially, we believe in relationships. So it's very much we, we want to foster that sense of safety ourselves. And we know that for all humans to be vulnerable and to grow we need to feel safe. So, it's very much a philosophy of our service.

Dale Atkinson: It's baked into the ethos.

Kathryn Mahadeva: Yeah.

Dale Atkinson: Kathryn Mahadeva, thank you very much for your time. She's an occupational therapist with the Self-Regulation Service with the Department for Education.

You can find out more about the self-regulation service on EDi and they'll also be in the show notes if you want to make contact and learn a bit more. Kathryn thank you for your time.

Kathryn Mahadeva: Thanks Dale.